Poll

Soar Alba?

Aye
18 (62.1%)
Naw
6 (20.7%)
Don't care
0 (0%)
Delete topic
5 (17.2%)

Total Members Voted: 29

Author Topic: och i the naw (maybes)  (Read 40949 times)

funky_nomad

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Re: och i the naw (maybes)
« Reply #15 on: Tue, Feb 04, 2014, 12:12 PM »
It's no wonder that Salmond wants Cameron to join the debate - that's their best (only) hope of victory!

The bookies cut the odds on a Yes vote from 9/2 to 100/30 last week, which is a fairly significant drop.
100/30 in a 2-horse race - the odds would need to come in much further than that for me to start thinking about EU membership or currency unions at anything beyond a passing level...

The trend is that the odds are shortening is what I'm saying. 100/30 is about the same odds that Stan Wavrinka was to beat Nadal in the Aussie Open Final or what Stephen Gallacher was to in Dubai going into the back 9 on Sunday.
Those odds have been fluctuating over the last few months, though. According to Betfair, the odds on Yes have drifted over the last week.

kwaing

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Re: och i the naw (maybes)
« Reply #16 on: Tue, Feb 04, 2014, 12:21 PM »
no means no

Scotpaulabear

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Re: och i the naw (maybes)
« Reply #17 on: Tue, Feb 04, 2014, 15:24 PM »
The white paper has to be the policies of the government, currently in situ, as they are bringing forward the proposal.  That is not to say they will be a reality but rather try to paint a picture, one possible alternative of a starting point for self governance.

Without a tangible alternative document to compare it against, a no vote is a real step into the unknown.  What will things look like if we say no?  At least the white paper presents one side of the argument we are yet to see what the other side looks like, and it is unlikely that we will see it.  It is difficult to argue the cause when the opposition put up nothing and cast continuous aspersions against everything you say.

The question at the end of the day is whether or not the people who inhabit Scotland believe that with the right infrastructure they could govern their own destiny, peaks and troughs.  DiD said it is like business, correct, do we believe that we have the confidence to be entrepreneurs or are going to forever be the workforce of the management?

I like the way you put it Deegers.  I'm not so good with explaining this without getting tongue tied!

(and thanks for not defriending me Czefski - I'm trying to keep it down to a dull roar on my page LOL)

franzkafka

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Re: och i the naw (maybes)
« Reply #18 on: Tue, Feb 04, 2014, 15:37 PM »
The question at the end of the day is whether we are grown up enough to start running our own country.  It's not a business decision.  No-one any longer tries to pretend that Scotland can't afford independence except the liars and scaremongers of which there are many.  I include the Labour Party in that bunch, together with practically all the press.

Look at the Better Together campaigners and tell me with a straight face that they are trustworthy people.

We can take control of our own futures, or we can let down our country again through apathy and stupidity.

Tir nan og!

DemonInDisguise

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Re: och i the naw (maybes)
« Reply #19 on: Tue, Feb 04, 2014, 16:27 PM »
The question at the end of the day is whether we are grown up enough to start running our own country.  It's not a business decision.  No-one any longer tries to pretend that Scotland can't afford independence except the liars and scaremongers of which there are many.  I include the Labour Party in that bunch, together with practically all the press.

Look at the Better Together campaigners and tell me with a straight face that they are trustworthy people.

We can take control of our own futures, or we can let down our country again through apathy and stupidity.

Tir nan og!


Franz, can I ask some questions then as someone who is not against the concept, but has yet to be persuaded? For me it is a business decision because I am part of that section of the population that bends over that wee bit further every year to take one for the team, fiscally speaking. My concern is that in an independent Scotland this'll get worse. Historically, politicians don't want to p*ss off the wealthy, stay well away away from people claiming benefits and thrash, what we often refer to as, the middle class (hate that term). If it affects my financial status it is a business decision.

So, on that basis, can you show me the figures? Annual spends and how the money will be generated in an independent Scotland to cover it? Persuade me that it is affordable.

Whether the Better Together campaign are trustworthy or not is neither here nor there - Salmond and Co are no different. I could care less about the personalities. The current administration have a fair few chinks in their armour too, and areas where they have been accused of being liberal with the facts. No, I don't know how true any of the accusations are, but I'm fairly sure all parties are as bad as each other. Although I always vote, I have never subscribed to a party in my life. My voting is influenced by issues, not parties and the same applies with independence.

If we don't vote for independence it doesn't mean we're apathetic or stupid, it just means we don't want it.

What's the relevance of Tir nan og?

I'm happy to take this offline if people are fed up, but I'm genuinely interested in the argument for independence because I am undecided, but, as I said previously I feel the onus is on the YES campaign to convince me that I should vote to change the status quo. I've been to some places that are fully independent but, trust me, you wouldn't ever want to live there because independence is all they have.




FilthySwan

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Re: och i the naw (maybes)
« Reply #20 on: Tue, Feb 04, 2014, 17:18 PM »

The whole thing strikes me as a whole lot of ego on Salmonds part. I think he fancies going down in the history books as some sort of William Wallace. I wouldn't be against independence if there was some sort of concrete argument for it but it all seems a bit wishy washy to me. The apparent Apathy from the UK government is either a master stroke or a dangerous game to play. I hope it's the former.
We're probably all fucked either way, there's nothing left to believe in.

franzkafka

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Re: och i the naw (maybes)
« Reply #21 on: Tue, Feb 04, 2014, 17:19 PM »
Hi Demon,

I don't think the finances are going to get worse at all.   Independence would mean a rebalancing of the economy, which at the moment is pretty much run for the benefit of London.   It's boom town.  It staggers from one massive project to the next sucking in capital and depriving the rest of the UK.  Think Olympics, Crossrail Project, HS2  Rail (which they pretend is for the benefit of Northern England, but will just suck more resource into London) just to begin with.  We are clearly not all in it together.  A couple of recent emergent small facts:

This from the BBC News:
Central government spending on arts and culture in the capital amounted to 69 per resident in 2012-13, compared with 4.60 per person elsewhere in England.

This From The Spectator:
the per capita state spending on transport infrastructure comes out at: south-west 215, north-east 246, Yorkshire and Humberside 303, north-west 839, London 4895.

This is one of my biggest problems with the UK and it will never change.   I like London, I like Londoners, but they should do their thing and we should do ours.  I feel very sorry for the North of England, but we at least have the opportunity to break with this obscene glorification of London. 

If you don't want Independence, then you are doing your country no favours.  We have been told we are a charity case for decades, what does that do for our self esteem?  Apart from the fact it's a lie.   The civil service lied to us for years about the amount of oil, always downplaying it hugely, under Labour, and under the Bastards both, and they are still doing it, constantly referring to Peak Oil having passed.

Things like Trident too, are things we should have no part of. And I don't just mean the huge cost.

Tir na nog I mentioned as a joke but it means Land of Youth and maybe we should think more about their future.  Look at the colossal waste of resources keeping so many of them unemployed, and the morale sapping horror of their reality.  I would like to think independence would reanimate and re-energise this country.  We might have to work a bit harder but that is no bad thing.  I'm afraid I cant furnish you with figures on Scotlands output, but even The Financial Times admits its a goer.

We may well be punished for a while for having the nerve to leave the UK, but we will definitely be punished if we stay.  Death by a thousand cuts.


franzkafka

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Re: och i the naw (maybes)
« Reply #22 on: Tue, Feb 04, 2014, 17:27 PM »

The whole thing strikes me as a whole lot of ego on Salmonds part. I think he fancies going down in the history books as some sort of William Wallace. I wouldn't be against independence if there was some sort of concrete argument for it but it all seems a bit wishy washy to me. The apparent Apathy from the UK government is either a master stroke or a dangerous game to play. I hope it's the former.
We're probably all fucked either way, there's nothing left to believe in.

Hi Filthy,
You sound a bit defeatist.  Time to accentuate the positive, and not be one of the 'I kent his faither' naysayers.   We have more than we need of that in this country.  We have nowt to fear but fear itself.  300 years of union, time for a wee change.

FilthySwan

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Re: och i the naw (maybes)
« Reply #23 on: Tue, Feb 04, 2014, 17:41 PM »

The whole thing strikes me as a whole lot of ego on Salmonds part. I think he fancies going down in the history books as some sort of William Wallace. I wouldn't be against independence if there was some sort of concrete argument for it but it all seems a bit wishy washy to me. The apparent Apathy from the UK government is either a master stroke or a dangerous game to play. I hope it's the former.
We're probably all fucked either way, there's nothing left to believe in.

Hi Filthy,
You sound a bit defeatist.  Time to accentuate the positive, and not be one of the 'I kent his faither' naysayers.   We have more than we need of that in this country.  We have nowt to fear but fear itself.  300 years of union, time for a wee change.

Maybe I am, however 300 years of Union, time for a wee change isn't a conclusive enough argument for me I'm afraid. Shrinking the current model down is all that will happen in my limited opinion (uk becomes Scotland, the central belt becomes London etc). There does need to be a change but I'm not convinced this is the answer to all our woes. Russell Brand had it right when he spoke to Paxman who'd have thunk it huh.

I'm off to work.

kwaing

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Re: och i the naw (maybes)
« Reply #24 on: Tue, Feb 04, 2014, 17:48 PM »
yeah, i'm sure the c10wns that 0verspent 0n a j0ke 0f a [n0w crumb1ing] par1iament bui1ding by a fact0r 0f 10, n0t t0 menti0n the fiasc0 that is the edinburgh tram system, have 1earned h0w t0 run a c0untry's finances

keeping sc0t1and in the uni0n is d0ing the wh01e 0f the uk a fav0ur

 

Deegers

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Re: och i the naw (maybes)
« Reply #25 on: Tue, Feb 04, 2014, 17:54 PM »

1. So, on that basis, can you show me the figures? Annual spends and how the money will be generated in an independent Scotland to cover it? Persuade me that it is affordable.

2. If we don't vote for independence it doesn't mean we're apathetic or stupid, it just means we don't want it.


1. Until such time as the two sides agree a carve up this is impossible to provide.  I am sure the yes campaign would like to give the numbers but with the no campaigns repeated refrain of no negotiation, it is impossible to do and to easy for everyone to shoot them down.

2. No it doesn't it just means that the half of the argument that has been laid out has nothing to compare and contrast against.

For debates sake, let's forecast that some of the economic doomsayers are right, Osbourne has screwed it up and the UK Ltd. goes bust and borrowing increases, the Tories get another term and win a vote to pull the UK out of Europe whilst all of the jobs and remaining industry gravitates ever Southward to London and the surrounding counties.

Faced with that proposition what would you vote then?  Yes or no?

The better together campaign needs to do more to justify a no vote than just continually shoot down everything the yes campaign say.  If the vote goes no and all manner of shit happens, afterwards, well is it not better to seize an opportunity to do something proactive than sit and moan about things afterwards?

Deegers

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Re: och i the naw (maybes)
« Reply #26 on: Tue, Feb 04, 2014, 17:57 PM »
yeah, i'm sure the c10wns that 0verspent 0n a j0ke 0f a [n0w crumb1ing] par1iament bui1ding by a fact0r 0f 10, n0t t0 menti0n the fiasc0 that is the edinburgh tram system, have 1earned h0w t0 run a c0untry's finances

keeping sc0t1and in the uni0n is d0ing the wh01e 0f the uk a fav0ur

That would be Labour wouldn't it, the same clowns that spent all the money in the treasury and sold off the gold as they had eliminated boom and bust!

R

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Re: och i the naw (maybes)
« Reply #27 on: Tue, Feb 04, 2014, 18:10 PM »
Being south of the border but with family in Scotland it's been quite interesting seeing the coverage here vs the coverage you've had in Scotland.


franzkafka

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Re: och i the naw (maybes)
« Reply #28 on: Tue, Feb 04, 2014, 18:15 PM »
yeah, i'm sure the c10wns that 0verspent 0n a j0ke 0f a [n0w crumb1ing] par1iament bui1ding by a fact0r 0f 10, n0t t0 menti0n the fiasc0 that is the edinburgh tram system, have 1earned h0w t0 run a c0untry's finances

keeping sc0t1and in the uni0n is d0ing the wh01e 0f the uk a fav0ur
Deegers is right.  It was labour, but these things happen under any government, then you can vote them out at the following election and get a new bunch of cunts to have another fiasco, but at least it would be our fiasco with independence.   It would introduce an element of responsibility and put an end to moaning about the London government, no bad thing.

Jackie

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Re: och i the naw (maybes)
« Reply #29 on: Tue, Feb 04, 2014, 18:27 PM »
Being English and living in England I obviously don't get to vote about this but the 'them and us'( ie Scots versus English as opposed to ordinary people v the twats in control) feeling being encouraged in some quarters does frighten and dismay me.   Obviously that's not a reason not to hold a vote but its scary all the same.